SNAP National Director David Clohessy: Too tired to check the facts? Or just dishonest?
We frequently address how the anti-Catholic group SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) deceives the public in its presentations, and now we have another short and simple example.
On Monday, SNAP National Director David Clohessy issued a media statement with the following headline:
A "predator priest"? Arrested? Indeed, this would be shocking if it were true. But it isn't.
In truth, Carlos Rene Rodriguez, who was arrested on Monday, has not acted as a priest for nearly two decades. The Church completely stripped him of his faculties in 1993. That same year, Rodriguez tried to return to ministry, but the Church denied him. The Church officially laicized him in 1998.
In other words, Rodriguez is far from being a "predator priest." He is merely a private citizen. As with any lay person, the Church has no control over his personal activities whatsoever.
SNAP's headline and story are completely false. Either SNAP knew this, and it deliberately deceived people, or it chose not to take a measly 20 seconds to learn the easily verifiable facts of the matter.
Either scenario does not bode well for the veracity of SNAP.
Feeling attacked as Catholics by SNAP are you? Imagine how we victims have felt because SNAP has treated us exactly the same way. What an incredable oddity: SNAP treats both the Church and victims badly. This behavior only makes sense if SNAP is not what it claims to be but something else entirely. That something else is what I have always claimed SNAP to be: a fraud working for the Church period.
“Predator priest” … it’s a great phrase: short, snappy (sorry), and easy and indeed almost pleasant to pronounce.
It’s such a neat phrase that you could almost build a Cause around the phrase (rather than the other way around). To some perhaps, it would almost be a sin (so to speak) to let such a nifty phrase go to waste.
And it also passes for a convenient short-hand for people who aren’t really given to thinking too much, but rather like to think that they are. ‘It’s those predator priests, doncha know? Everybody knows that.’
And also serves as a handy recognition signal: Q: ‘What do you think of predator priests?’ A: ‘Oh, they’re everywhere! It’s a scandal!’ To which the next step might be ‘Shall we have coffee somewhere?’
To some extent it’s a matter of a culture that now derives meaning from appearances and mutual identification rather than from independent thinking and the habitual Kicking of Tire. It looks like there might be such creatures, and if there are a few maybe there are a lot. And if we have this nifty phrase by which we can establish a quick ‘unity’, then that’s a good thing: we are therefore quickly forged into a group with a good Cause (can a bad cause have such a catchy phrase?).
But it’s also a matter of a culture where the technology of the internet (given a lot of crucial help by established media) can allow a very few to create something that influences the many.
The history of SNAP is probably going to be an interesting topic for analysis in marketing classes.
Actually, unless I am mistaken, it seems that SNAP should know that Carlos Rodriguez was no longer a priest from an LA Times report on his trial in September 2002. That report is featured on SNAP's own website. The headline reads "2 Ex-Priests Charged in Molestations" and the report states, "Rodriguez, who resigned from the priesthood in 1993." He is also referred to as a "former priest."
http://www.snapnetwork.org/news/calif/la2priestcharged.htm
Very sharp, snappy (sorry) job, Mark. They are very deceptive..You know, Judy Snap Jones (midwest highly paid snap worker) whose comments appear like lightening everywhere– practically invites supposed victims (with the same, repetitive blurb) to report abuse no matter how old or unsure one might be. I am surprised she has not been sued as she singles out only priests-no ministers, rabbis, or teachers, etc.- some have been falsely accused, charges dropped etc. Judy Snappy is on the case anyway and it is because she is deceptive-NOT because she doesn't check the status of the priest. Some SNAP supporters think it is a unique sign of theirs to disrespectfully refer to ANY priest as Mr. instead of Father, Bishop, Archbishop or Cardinal-I am not talking about accused clergy-just any clergy They are all mixed up and unravelling as well as deceptive. They want it both ways and expect the gullible to eat it all up!
That's what your banking on? People using a phrase that actually describe who people actually are: predator priests? No one said all priests are predators the fact that there are any is horrific. You guys seem to be the ones freaking out that any predator priests are mentioned publicly. For what , PR issues? You are going to have to reform your Church in order to save your Church. Like the Republican party it supports; the Church's control of what Catholics think and do is at an end because it is no longer relevent to it's own membership. Note the Catholic vote for pro choice and pro Gay marrige legislation.
Just a P.S. -my comment above does not intend to dissuade any victim of abuse by family or any other person from reporting it to authorities
SNAP commenters will surely misrepresent and misread this, but this is a quote out of a longer piece by George Weigel: "But the facts—and the selective way they are dealt with in too much of the mainstream media—do suggest that the story line declaring the Catholic Church a uniquely perverse institution is a lie; those who perpetrate it are either ignorant bigots, or people with agendas other than the protection of young people, or both." – George Weigel. I think SNAP and the media have collaborated on perpretrating this. I am thinking David Clohessy believes himself to be smarter than reporters and the general public at large and so thinks he can throw lies and the same old mantras out there and everybody will continue to swallow it hook line and sinker (and the gullible include lawmakers). JR is right about SNAP treating victims badly and not caring about them.
As we know from the John Jay Reports – pretty much the only serious formal Studies done (SNAP has never used its money to fund or commission any careful Studies) – a substantial percentage of allegations were focused on a small percentage of multiple-allegation priests; the majority of priests accused only had one allegation against them.
Then you have to factor in all the other elements we have seen and are seeing: the actual definition of ‘sexual abuse’ being presumed, the veracity of the allegations (requiring careful investigation of specific claims), and so on.
Once those calculations have been made, I think it is accurate to say that while there have been individual priests who engaged in substantive and repetitive sexual predation (somewhere on the broad spectrum of ‘sexual abuse’), yet there is no ground for constructing the image of “predator priests” (i.e. that most priests are predators). To that extent, the image of “predator priests” has indeed been a PR construct.
Further, by all extant indicators (the second John Jay Report as compared to the first) those priests who were identified a decade ago as actually “predatory” are now out of ministry or even dead (as not a few of them were, even a decade ago).
Thus the Church has indeed reformed herself – as much as any human organization can (the military has had a so-called zero-tolerance policy towards sexual abuse for many years, and yet the number of allegations seems to be rising annually nonetheless). And I would add here that the Church is – and has always held herself to be – not a ‘divine’ organization but rather a human organization with a divine mission and task.
And now, finally, we are beginning to see more clearly what has always been suspected: a drumming-up dynamic conducted by certain tort-attorneys and firms among those who might wish to lodge an allegation and a legal claim; as well as a derangement of objective police work, by which derangement the police presumed the validity of the allegations they were supposed to investigate and simply used their authority to pursue the (gratuitously-presumed) ‘guilty’ perps, among whom would be listed “predator priests”.
And also we are beginning to see the lineaments of an axis between victim-organizations such as SNAP and the trawling tort-attorneys themselves.
I expect we shall see more revelations along these lines if and when further investigation is done. Or even if and when the media simply refrain from cloaking these areas in the fog of a gratuitously-presumed credibility of the organizations, the specific attorneys, and the allegations made. As it stands now, we are seeing brought to light these days realities which even six months ago many would have pooh-poohed as nothing but ‘backlash’.
I was the only accusor ,so far, of both my perps. The fact is they did what they did to me anyway. Do I think I was the only victim of these freaks? No. Why haven't any others come forward? I have no idea.
Of course you accurately see a connection between SNAP and attornies for victims. That connection is Jeff Anderson. And who exactly placed him for 30+ years as the go to lawyer re; sex abuse? I believe the Church did. I believe they picked the other team, the coaches the players and the field were picked by the Church for a day they knew would come. So that the Church would still control. And in 2002, that day arrived.
Don't you think we ,your opposition, would behave differently than SNAP has behaved? I know we wanted to but SNAP always pops up in front and" leads" us where it wants to go. Victims be damned.
P.S. And SNAP always leads us to a combatative position with the Church. That of course wins us many friends in the pews not.
But that's eactly what the Church wanted. No connection between the faithful and their own, your own children, which is who we are.
This is classic divide and conquer politics. Even you must see that. It's been and is being done to you.
Boy, this guy is mired in conspiracy theories big time! Evidence. will have no effect on such people. Climate change is up against the same problem
-scientists present evidence but if you are determined not to hear, well …..
A question for JR: you speak disparagingly of SNAP (rightly so) on this site. Do you post in similar vein on SNAP's website and other SNAP-infected websites?
I am not allowed on SNAP's site. Nor am I allowed on NCR, National Catholic Reporter. (So much for liberalism) I post a lot at Bilgrimidge a progressive intelligent and kind website. My disparaging of SNAP is very different than yours. I claim SNAP is the Church. You think SNAP's against the Church.
I would like to respond to Josie's comment. Just in case any of you wish to hear the truth.
I do not take a cent from SNAP. I would not even consider it, because SNAP is not a wealthy organization.
For your info, last year I SPENT over $8000.00 of my own hard earned money doing SNAP work and reaching out to those still silent victims,
( and there are many who are way too afraid to speak up, mainly because there are folks like you who post comments which disregard their pain and trauma and do not believe them, probably because they think like my mother did).
As for my work with SNAP. I happened to start working with snap because my brother and several of my relatives were sexually abused by our long time parish priest in southeastern Ohio where I grew up. My own mother could not even allow herself to believe her own son, she did everything that priest told her to do, and it most likely would have wiped out her whole life. She is now dead, and I am guessing that she is up there somewhere, helping me because she now knows the truth.
Somehow, I have become the SNAP poster woman, I have gradually registered to over a thousand news media thru out the world, to be able to easily post comments reaching out to others who may have been harmed. I do this, because it works. I also post comments to all kinds of sex abuse articles, whether they be boy scouts, ministers, Penn State, coaches, teachers, whoever is accused of sex abuse of a child.
And I work hard to help expose the truth and to help get this horrific sex abuse kids and the cover up stopped. I hate to burst your bubble. ( well not really )… but I never plan to quit until I take my last breathe.
And Mr Pierre, for the most part, I ignore your comments but sometimes they just make me laugh for a while. But I have a question for you: Is it illegal to be anti catholic? It "is" illegal to sexually abuse children and to cover up their crimes..( but for your info, I was born and raised the oldest of a 11 kids, in a very devout loyal catholic family)
I do this volunteer work because I just happen to love children, It just so happens that I was a child a very long ago… Wondering if you ever where?
Tks for listening, and I hope this clears up some misunderstandings, especially to those victims and supporters who might read this.
Judy Jones, SNAP USA. snapjudy@gmail.com, and SNAP Australia
"SNAP (The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) is the world's oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims. SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 12,000 members. Despite the word priest in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, teachers, Protestant ministers and increasingly, victims who were assaulted in a wide range of institutional settings like orphanages, summer camps, athletic programs, Boy Scouts, etc
SNAP’s Judy Jones asked, “Is it illegal to be anti catholic (sic).”
No, we do not think that, and we have never said so.
Hi Judy, how's the letter writing campaign for Dr. Steve Taylor going? Has David turned in his brother, yet?
"Holy smoke" as my grandmother loved to say-I will have to make time to respond to this one-don't have right now.
Judy Jones, far from clearing up misunderstandings, your comments expose some serious inconsistencies which simply confirm my suspicions of SNAP’s true motives. First, though, let me refute your unfounded accusation that commentators on this site disregard the pain and trauma of child abuse victims. Child sexual abuse is a disgraceful crime. Pope Benedict has labeled it “filth.” Those who have suffered such abuse deserve our sympathy, help and support. And those who have committed sexual abuse deserve to be treated as the criminals they are, be they a priest or any other member of society. As a Catholic I keep a sense of perspective. I do not confuse the traditions, teachings, and benevolence of the Church with the human sins of a relatively tiny number of Judas priests. And I remain a firmly committed Catholic because I do not reduce and restrict the 2,000 year-old Church to the issue of sex abuse.
That, though, is precisely what SNAP seems to want to do. You mention other areas where child sexual abuse has been rife – “boy scouts, ministers, Penn State, coaches, teachers, whoever is accused of sex abuse of a child.” Your sign-off contains what might be described as a disclaimer: “Despite the word priest in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, teachers, Protestant ministers and increasingly, victims who were assaulted in a wide range of institutional settings like orphanages, summer camps, athletic programs, Boy Scouts, etc.”
This implies you are equally concerned with cases of abuse in each of these diverse areas. So you should be, as we all know that the incidence of child sexual abuse is lower in the Catholic Church than other denominations, and is dwarfed by society-wide abuse figures. Yet the mission statement on SNAP’s website states: “SNAP is an independent, confidential network of survivors of religious sexual abuse” (my italics). And perusing the website we soon discover which religion SNAP is bent on hounding (of course, there’s a huge clue in the organization’s name). Every one of the 17 Q&A entries mentions the words “Catholic,” “priest” and/or “bishop.” Both “Survivors stories” relate to the Catholic Church.
A blog entry by David Clohessy on August 22, 2011 reads: “Today I received sad news; SNAP has lost a very good friend. After a long battle with kidney and liver problems, Steve Rabi of Albuquerque, NM passed away. Steve had been a SNAP leader for about a decade. Steve spent countless hours working to recover from his own abuse, reaching out to others in pain, consoling and guiding them, exposing wrongdoing in the church” (my italics). Which church? There are many. Or is this the Catholic Church as the default and generic signifier of child sexual abuse? The garbage-peddling secular liberal media may be able to get away with that bogus caricature; but for a supposed victims support organization it would be a serious manipulation and provides an insight into Mr Clohessy’s mindset. Remember that word? Perspective?
None of this surprises me; but here is something that astounds me. The Q&A section is prefaced with this: These remarks are the personal opinions of Mr. David Clohessy, Executive Director of SNAP, and not necessarily the official views of the SNAP Organization.”
Curiously, the Q&A section contains this entry: “In the current crisis of the Church, Pope John Paul II has pronounced that….” It seems that both SNAP’s website and its organization are in need of serious overhaul. Despite an attempted veneer of selfless impartiality the impression it leaves me with is that of an organization which is pursuing a hostile anti-Catholic crusade. There are a large number of reputable and valuable child abuse victim support groups, such as HAVOCA, Safe Horizon, ASCA, NSPCC, Pandora’s Project, and many more. In contrast to SNAP, they do not spend time allying with media and lawyers seeking to corral plaintiffs for lawsuits, excoriating the Catholic Church and victimizing its priests. These other organizations have no other agenda than to help victims.
Reducing and confining the world-wide epidemic of child sexual abuse by scapegoating the Catholic Church and politicizing such a heinous crime does an unforgivable disservice to the genuine victims of child sexual abuse.
To Judy Jones: How very proud your "very devout loyal catholic family" must be of you. You have tried to make a mockery of the Catholic faith. It is difficult to believe that you know anything about it, let alone that you once were Catholic.
As for the $8,000 you spent of your "own hard earned money" – that is the easiest $8,000 you ever had! It's blood money from the SNAP lawyers who hunt like hyenas for people who have no morals, are often in prison, and those without souls or anything to believe in. You probably have not spent a penny of YOURS in the past ten years! And why should you? You have enriched your lawyers with millions of dollars. Nobody believes they don't give SNAP a part of OUR money – OUR being from the Catholic Churches you and your ilk have tried to bankrupt.
When you get the first pain in the chest, you'll be looking for a Catholic priest to hear your confession. And since our Church preaches forgiveness, a Catholic priest will be right there to hear you – and this time let's hope you will be able to distinguish the truth from what you have been pitching all these years.
C.C. Dulene, Judy Jones is not a victim. She has not been compensated as such. Why are the ladies so angry? Assuming C.C. is a woman. Wouldn't they be just as angry if it was their child or grandchild harmed?
Oh, please, "..the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend"! Both SNAP and Robertson are enemies of the Catholic Church. Beware of unholy alliances- do not be seduced.
Disturbing food for thought (filed under sad but true): sometimes you are a " victim", multiple times no less, because you want to be – excluding of course, pre-pubescent children and others demonstrably incapable of defense. Sometimes, the guilt associated with cooperating with your "abusers" is overwhelming as an adult. Of course, someone else has to pay for your sins against nature, as well as againt your "perpetrator". Then, you become the "professional" victim- first victimized by the Church and then by the organization created for the sole purpose of destroying the Church. Good grief, what is next- chewing off your own foot?
The bigger battle for the Church, and it loyal parishioners, is to focus on the root cause for this latest assault. Many of this site's posters/bloggers are impressively adept at details, strategies, stats and historical catalogs on this topic, but, as you all know, the devil truly is in the details-and, that is just where he wants you-distracted by the details. It's an old magicians trick- it works.
The truth is that many "victims" are frauds and deceivers (as you have proven) and their "defenders" are usually grinding their own personal axes. Those axes are currently (this generation of attacks) forged in past (and likely current) homosexual (and likely other manifestations of sexual deviancy)conduct and other morally-bereft behaviors, such as the practice of Satanism, Atheism and paganistic "religions". It is time to call the spade "a spade" and be done with political correctness.
All of this is clearly also tied into the battle for power (can't help but notice how easily the debate swings into political ideaology) over our very freedoms and ultimatley, our souls.
I have no mercy for the deceiver, or those who do his bidding-whether willingly, or unwittingly. If it's forgiveness and understanding our enemies crave, let them seek out the counsel of a Catholic priest, otherwise, let them take up their swords for the battle they launched.
Delphine if God is the center of Catholicism then what chance do anti-Catholics have anyway? Stop being Miss Outrageous Huffenstuff [Deleted by moderator] How about you not mention my abuse or your moronic take on same abuse, huh? [This comment was edited by the moderator]
It was Dave Clohessy who convinced me over 10 years ago to love and appreciate Catholics as human beings trying to simply survive like the rest of us.
Back in the mid-1990s, in the Boston area, it was easy for me (and many) to be positioned against Catholics and almost blame them for me being sexually abused. I was in litigation; scared and emotionally raw from the Church's high paid, hired gun, pit bull attorneys whose job was to discredit me at the Flock's expense. That was 'business as usual' for the way the Church hierarchy handles cases; even today dispite the put-on of remorse only they can.
I easily hated Catholics and I thought many hated us until I had a heart to heart conversation with Dave where he presented to me another perspective. At that time understanding Greek might have been easier, or maybe Latin….
Ten years later I feel Dave was right. By 2000-2002 both victims and many Catholics were fighting together and reached a common position. Many of us protested in front of the cathedral in Boston side by side. We wanted justice and protection for our children and our comrade Catholics wanted to clean up the church they loved. I personally feel that the Catholics made more headway over time then we did…
Most victims had drifted outside their faith tradition, but, in many ways were envious of Catholic friends who could still keep their faith. Some victims found a way to keep practicing the faith they once loved, but, not me. Looking back, it's been a spiritual journey which, today, I am grateful for…..
I have not always agreed with SNAP's position on the clergy abuse scandal, but, I have been amazed at how I have been allowed to disagree and still remain supported by members.
SNAP isn't much different then a support group, but, without the 12 steps; no one really gets to be right with the exception that most of us realized that we would not have been abused if it wasn't for a Bishop not taking responsible action.
Along with many victims who emerged in the 1990s in the Boston area I am no longer active with SNAP, but, I am grateful for the support I was given and the freedom I was allowed to follow my own path without judgment.
Mr Harrington I'm glad SNAP worked for you. For victims overall SNAP's a disaster. Here in L.A. the arrogance and manipulation was extraordinary. We would get the same looks from SNAP the nun's used to hand out to the kids who they felt weren't "under control' in school. And then there was the back stabbing. When we victims early on said screw SNAP we'll act on our own. All of us recieved calls from our own lawyers saying what are u doing? Your screwing things up. Barbra called the leader of what was then called Survivors of Silence now Victims of Silence (Mollie who was a victim and former nun in her mid '50s) Mollie was told that she was destroying DESTROYING all the years of SNAP's work and as usual from SNAP, hurting victims. Unbelievable! You know what the fuss was over? A silent vigil in the Cathedral. I'm not kidding you. Over nothing. One very strange thing did occur however. One victims mother who sat 4 people away from me. The next day it was all over the victims in L.A. that this woman spit, SPIT on the Cardinal???? I was there she never did that and never would do that. Who started that bizzare lie I can only guess. Years later I have heard the spit story from Boston and other places. A demonstrator in Boston supposedly spit on Law or a Bishop there. It never happened. Ask yourself what kind of people would come up with such a lie, such lies, and why.
Bill, when I first became interested in this subject two and a half years ago, I was not a Catholic, and I had no bone to pick on either side of the fence. I was an inquirer asking honest questions and seeking thoughtful answers. I did not even know about this website at the time, and would not for a good year and a half. I did not get any thoughtful answers. Heck, I did not get any answers, period. What I did get was myself labeled a "papist" and a "defender of pedophiles" and SNAP immediately blocked my IP in their comments section. SNAP's initial response to my inquiries set the tone for my view of them and their tactics. When I would stumble on this site a year later, it was a confirmation of what I already knew, and I knew that SOLELY from info straight out of SNAP's proverbial mouth.
My experience is them is VASTLY different from what you claim to be your own. I have no choice but to conclude that they are megalomaniac liars who value spite and agenda over the truth.
U know delphi, that your name is a reference to pagan idolotry, the Delphic oracle. I smell brimstone.
We should always remember, that SNAP's agenda is to destroy the Catholic Church.
SNAP'sagenda is NOT support of victims. That wasn't clear in the very beginning, but has been made abundantly clear time and time again now.
Julie, how could SNAP or anyone including your own hierarchs destroy the Catholic Church with God, GOD at it's center? Does a non believer (me) have to remind you who you have on your side? The Big Kahuna him/her self. Come on kid buck up. Remember who you believe in and relax. You are still wrong about who SNAP is and who it works for. But aside from that, your Church will survive.
Sorry, Bill Harrington, but if what you say in your opening line is true, then my advice to Mr Clohessy would be: practice what you preach. Or maybe Mr Clohessy was a different person 10 years ago than he is today. But that would be a moot point – rather like painting the Catholic Church today as if it was still in the sixties and seventies, when the vast majority of the proven cases of abuse took place. Different organization, different socio-cultural context, different time. The fact is that no organization has done more in the last decade to rectify its shortcomings and institute measures to safeguard minors than the Church. None. Yet Mr Clohessy and SNAP continue to victimize and demonize the Church. Some of their apparently deceitful tactics have been exposed here and on other sites. Don’t fool yourself: Catholics and others are seeing through the charade. As a practicing Catholic I feel no “love” or appreciation from Mr Clohessy and his cohorts. Quite the contrary. In fact I despise his and SNAP’s anti-Catholic crusade, just as I despise any attempt to sugarcoat it.
Mark that's right hit the Church where they really live in the pocket book and things change to some degree.
Mark, the Church is not the victim here. The victims are the "victim' here. And the Church has been behaving like a "demon" towards the people they have hurt. The lie that is SNAP is a most profound example. Giving victims fraud rather than justice. Only Satan could think of that.
I think that the Mystery of God’s Providence – how He works things unto good through the complex ins and outs of human historical activity – is beyond our poor power to fully comprehend. As I have often said, the bottom-line of all this Abuse Matter in regard to the Church is that she has come out of it reformed in a good sense, and I can only hope and pray that this trajectory will be sustained.
My thought about SNAP is that at the very best it became a victim of its own strategy, in several ways.
First, conforming to the conventional process of political change in this country, you have to exaggerate problems in the public mind in order to drum up the public acceptance and political ‘steam’ necessary to get your agenda adopted. This is an iffy path to take: there is a fine and dangerous line between ‘informing’ the public opinion and ‘manipulating’ it. And beneath the ‘manipulation’ dwells the ancient Beast: most people really can’t be trusted to see the ‘right’ thing and – like trail-bosses do with a herd – those who ‘see’ have to sort of move the herd along since the cows don’t know what’s good for them in the first place. This is a profoundly un-democratic, and indeed an anti-democratic, philosophical presumption, whether the vanguard elites admit it to themselves or not.
Second, once you have built an organization around such an exaggerated ‘reality’, then it’s very hard to let go once the Problem – even in its actual rather than its exaggerated form – has been addressed. We see this dynamic in, for example, the military-industrial budgeting, where problems and ‘threats’ are exaggerated, programs are lushly funded to address them, but then the Problem never seems to be resolved and renewal (or even increase) of the funding is continually demanded. (Or – ominously – the Problem is simply replaced with a fresher variant and the Game begins all over again in a new phase.)
Third, once you have convinced yourself and your followers that you are not simply addressing an ad-hoc issue but are actually on the cutting-edge of a battle or war against some hydra-headed ‘evil’ (or ‘Evil’) then the tendency is reinforced: we can’t stop now (or ever).
And fourth, given the insoluble evidentiary complexities I have previously discussed in regard to this specific matter of establishing the actual instances and extent of Abuse (either in the past or in the present) there is no way of actually demonstrating when you have ‘won’ and the Ball Keeps Rolling and has to be Kept Rolling ad infinitum.
I appreciate ‘Bill Harrington’s comments. I imagine that it was a daunting experience to be faced with a large organization against which you wished to proceed, and which was exercising its resources and influence to defend itself. And some of the prelates of a decade and more ago were indeed exemplars of that old Prelate-As-CEO and as Political-Boss that I personally am glad to see passing from the ecclesiastical scene.
But I will respectfully continue to point out the complexities of abuse-allegations as they mutated when transferred from the therapeutic to the legal (and public) forum.
And I would say that Yes, there were other Catholics who made common-cause to some extent with the victim-groups. But many of those – though not all – were also pursuing agendas having to do with the post-Vatican 2 pandemonium of demands and agendas which still comprise so much of, say, the NCR site’s material.
Nonetheless, I will state again what I said a few comments back: if this Matter – especially as it is now developing – enhances the credibility of genuine victims while simultaneously enhancing the further refinement and strengthening of the Church’s spiritual and moral integrity, then it’s a Win-Win.
If allegators and claimants are willing to have their specific charges genuinely investigated to establish veracity, and the Church is willing to deal with such established claims – and all of this to take place without the derangement of a super-heated publicity atmosphere – then I think that is the best route that can possibly be expected if we are all to move forward.
Meanwhile, groups that genuinely and competently and robustly seek to provide therapeutic help to any who seek reparative work are – perhaps even with Church funding – greatly to be encouraged.
SNAP – from what has been divulged about its finances – has never much invested in such a project. And at this point I wonder if the organization – at least as it is presently constituted and led – can change its ‘business model’ sufficiently to move forward. But that’s a ‘wonder’ and not an outright assertion.
So much remains to be done, as Ike once said.
Pub SNAP only has "followers" in distant places that are lucky enough to never have to deal day in day out with SNAP.
SNAP is doing it's real job controlling victims; our families; and good hearted Catholics who attempt to support victims. In fact SNAP is so great at doing it's real job. It's gone international. Think about it Australia has a huge amount of victims but for "leadership" they import SNAP and Fr. Tom Doyle? Australians can't create it's own victims representation? Not bloody likely>
I was abused as a child by a Catholic priest in Philadelphia. When I came forward nearly four years ago, SNAP was one of very few outlets I found that facilitated support group meetings all around the country, and I was happy to find one I could drive to, even though it was a nearly 3 hour (one way) one day per month. I have always found great support, understanding, honesty, and friendship at SNAP meetings. However, I never cared in the beginning who facilitated the meeting and to some extent I still don't care now, because I knew when I needed support, and if I ever need it again in the future, that meeting is available, and I trust and respect the victims in it.
I'm just not too sure how welcome I am at meetings. I am certainly not allowed to participate on SNAPs website and SNAP stopped sending me emails for events, conferences, and protests long ago. I am still sent the occassional "Donate Now" email from SNAP, but I refuse to donate a single penny to such adishonest and disingenuous organization that excludes just as many, perhaps even more, than it includes. I reported my abuse to the District Attorney's Office in Philadelphia in early 2009, because I couldn't live with the memory of abuse by myself any longer, and I especially couldn't live silently knowing my abuser may still be out there destroying more innocent children's lives. When I found my voice, I also found out I was the only victim accusing the priest who abused me. When I used my voice to go public about my abuse and the priest who abused me, more than a dozen victims came forward, all abused by the same priest, and all telling the same stories of grooming, molestation, and rape. When I found SNAP on a street corner, protesting in front of churches, cathedrals, schools, and other Catholic owned and operated buildings, my voice was pushed to the side, ignored, and gagged by some SNAP leaders looking for more time in front of the media. I was told what I can say and when I can say it. I was told to shut up and not to talk to people. This organization called "SNAP" was now treating me in a very similar way in which the Catholic Church had treated me. My story only ever seemed to be important to them is if somehow it could solely benefit them. I only realized how truly cruel SNAP is to victims after almost 3 years of dealing with them.
When I decided to start my own support group meeting in Philadelphia for "ALL" victims of childhood sexual abuse, whether they were raised Catholic or atheist, a SNAP national leader sent an email out condemning my meeting and telling people I was a terrible person. I've never hurt anyone intentionally in my life. I gave so much of my time and effort fighting for the protection of children inside and outside the walls of the Catholic Church. I wanted to be involved in a meeting that could benefit childhood sexual abuse victims of priests, but also incest victims, and those abused by daycare workers and public school teachers alike, but SNAP tried persuading victims from my meeting. I'm not a terrible person. I just care about my fellow victims a lot, and SNAP couldn't "terribly" understand that.
I'm going to continue fighting for children, no matter what religious denomination they are raised in, whether abuse is occurring in my state or in all of these United States. I will support victims in Canada, Ireland, Africa, Japan, and wherever else this type of crime occurs, but I promise one thing; I will lead my charge honestly and with integrity. I refuse to challenge dishonest organizations and dishonest people by creating a lie myself. That will change nothing and it would only make me feel bad about myself.
Jim Robertson is NOT the only victim who has been run over by SNAP. There are too many of us out in the world who trusted SNAP had our backs, only to be decieved yet again by an institution who claimed they had the victim's best interest at heart. There are some people involved with SNAP whom I respect, but as for the organization itself and its three main leaders – they will never again be able to earn my respect! I have no time for liars!
Peace out!
Rich
First Rich, I am sorry about your grooming and abuse. Words arn't enough. I don't know you. But I wish you all the best.
As Rich has said, SNAP is a manipulative control machine. It back stabs all decent efforts by victims to participate fully in our own liberation. Unless that participation is controlled by SNAP. Name another movement that behaves like this? You can't.
If SNAP is so "loved" by victims, why did only 16 out of 650+ victims in L.A. donate money after our settlements to SNAP? You figure it out.
Given what I read here from people like JR and Rich, I would encourage readers to leave comments on websites where SNAP seeks to spread its propaganda. As we know, they are a secretive and manipulative organistation which blocks any adverse commentary from its own site. It will block anybody who registers and is even slightly critical of SNAP. So whereas this website (TMR) is open and allows comment from people like Judy Jones from SNAP, nobody is allowed to raise a dissenting voice on their website. The hypocrisy and double standard that Dave Pierre pointed out long ago.
They provide links on their site to articles in other media that contain statements from their smearspeople. Posting comments on those articles, in media which SNAP can only partially manipulate will help disabuse readers of the notion that the organization cares more about victims than lambasting and denigrating the Church.
Why not skip the irrelevant part of posting and ask the questions SNAP refuses to answer: Why no elections? Who sets SNAP poliocy? Why is it set the way it is? Why do so many activist victims walk away from SNAP shaking their heads in disbelief? Why is all of SNAP's presentation unneccessarily Church hostile? Why is SNAP's language so warlike i.e. SNAP "blasts" this about the Church and SNAP "blasts "that? Why has there been no attempt by SNAP of seeking cooperation with the Church. Yes individual victims are on the whole treated basely by the Church. But SNAP, if it was what it says, is a victims union and has much more sway to bargain collectively.
Uh, yeah, because if we all focus our sights on what SNAP, a thoroughly discredited entity, is or isn't doing, well, then we can't focus on the BIG LIE that is "Catholic Church…yada, yada, yada… generations of priestly-misbehaving…yada, yada, yada… cover-up and conspiracy".
I propose that some (or, at the very least, one) TMR posters are SNAP agents "programmed" by SNAP to present Red Herrings, or would that be Red SNAPpers?
Prove it isn't true.
Delphin did angels ask you to post here or is there a paycheck involved? You rolled in here like a bulldozer. You think that the Catholic Church is a big lie? You like Sienfeld? What? Another defender of what? The faith? No one's questioning your faith. You can believe in the devil as long as you need to. Is it the Church's reputation? That's tougher. That boat seems to have sailed. Who are you? Is secrecy necessary for a reason?
To read more about how SNAP manipulates victims and pushes us down so it can pursue its agenda, whoever is writing it, check out City of Angels 2: This Really Happened:
http://cityofangels2.blogspot.com
I was developing an effective tool at City of Angels Blog, publishing facts about these crimes that were not being published anywhere else. SNAP tried to stop me from Day One, which in itself makes no sense. When I didn't go away immediately, they amped up their attacks on me. All the years I did the blog, no one from the church ever hurt me. Only SNAP hurt me. Then I realized that beating down victims who have creative ideas and energy to carry them out is one of SNAP's main roles.
We victims all turned to SNAP thinking they were trustworthy. Most of us won't talk to church hierarchy, but we all talked to SNAP and did what SNAP told us to do.
How naive we all were.
I know from experience, SNAP is managing the message and corraling victims so our stories, our truth, never gets totally into the news. For example, where are the "hundreds" of people who called SNAP, as they reported in their press releases, after the Pope's visit, and after the Hague paper filing. All those survivors may be calling SNAP and telling SNAP their stories. But it's not the other victims or the public that is getting the information the victims tell SNAP.
So to whom is SNAP giving the information about all these crimes?
There was one organization that knew there were hundreds of thousands of victims as far back as the 1980s. One group knew the Church would need some project to control the story as it broke: The US conference of Catholic Bishops knew in 1988 and created "The Project" based on a paper written by Fr. Thomas Doyle.
So SNAP was born. Then when the story went national, a miracle happened. Clohessy was named one of People's 25 most intriguing and then as he admits himself, after that the phones at SNAP rang off the walls.
No one in Boston got those calls, SNAP got the calls. Then all that information sank into SNAP's black hole, never to be heard again.
One other point; David Clohessy was named Executive Director of SNAP in the mid-1990s within weeks of when his brother Father Kevin Clohessy was secreted off into treatment after being outed as a pedophile priest.
Clohessy came out of nowhere to run SNAP at the same time his brother was getting charges dropped against him and put into a treatment facility.
Coincidence? And if you ask David about it, he cries. Never answers, just cries, or says, How dare you ask me that. . . Clohessy is very adept at dodging questions and making the reporter feel guilty for asking.
SNAP is damage control. The pedophile priest victims got screwed by priests, then screwed by the Church when we went there for help, then screwed by SNAP.
Worst part of all this is watching mainstream news continue to publish SNAP press releases just assuming they are true. They are press releases. In fact, that is SNAP: press releases and press events. And these numbskull reporters never think to ask, um, where are all the victims? Why don't we ever hear from anyone but these two-three very controlled and professional media models?
Apologies to Judy Jones. I know she is sincere. I just wish she would look around at what really happened here.
About all SNAP does on a local level is leaflet outside churches. The leaflets are written by Clohessy usually, he dictates what will be said to the press and where. Most the victims don't want to leaflet outside Mass but no one at SNAP cares what we want.
Leafletting at churches, ONE, creates nothing but hostility between victims and parishioners as it's totally not the right time or place to leaflet about pedophiles, and TWO: as we conduct our little leafletting events outside churches, inside the building is the priest, monsignor, bishop, and who knows who else watching us on security cameras. By conducting all the leafletting at churches, SNAP assures that the Catholic Church finds out who the victims are and what we are saying.
There is so much more ot this story that has not been told. Apparently there are over a hundred thousand victims of pedophile priests in the USA alive right now. Most of us Did Not make up our stories. Most of us wish these stories weren't true. And most of us are still without a voice and invisible.
Thanks to SNAP most of the world still does not know what really happened. But, no, most definitely SNAP is not out to destroy the church, SNAP is out to keep a lid on this story and let as little damage be done to the Catholic Church as possible.
Me, I'm just waiting for some reporter to figure this out and get this part of the story in mainstream media and exposed. SNAP is damage control, and the victims just all got screwed again.
Here is how SNAP works. Whenever a story makes waves in the news, SNAP shows up, takes center stage, becomes the go-to person for press and survivors to contact. Whatever locals were doing gets co-opted by SNAP. Then they go back to Chicago or St. Louis and no one hears from them again. Local survivors are left going, what the f— just happened. But we all want SNAP to be what it says it is, so we cooperate.
And no bishop ever goes to prison, people in the pews have no idea what happened, and the Church gets as little damage as possible.
the damage is controlled.
When the Boston story broke in 2002, someone got Clohessy named one of People Magazine's 25 most intriguing which resulted in all the calls going to SNAP and not to people in Boston.
When German lawyers were calling for victims to come forward for a a prosecutorial filing at The Hague in April of 2011, SNAP put together its own filing at The Hague in September of 2011, with great media fanfare not possible for the German lawyers. And well, whatever happened to that?
Now in Australia victims organized and got a Royal Inquiry by their federal government. So SNAP is on a jet to Australia right away, and is now down under doing the whole shebang all over again there.
Me, I am flabbergasted that so many victims let this happen. Lots of pedophile priest victims could tell right away something was wrong with SNAP but they just keep going and going and going…
Yikes, when I start writing about this stuff it just keeps coming and coming.
To all the victims who are left with that What the f– just happened feeling after a SNAP event, just try this. Entertain the idea that SNAP is really working for the bishops to protect the church. Suddenly it all comes together, you experience… Reconciliation. All your questions about SNAP get answered. They are working for the church.
Good grief- yet, another Catholic Church-SNAP conspiracy theorist.
We Catholics are all so gullible, after all, we believe the Guy in the Sky stuff.
Here's the dope for the dopes who think they can dupe us: SNAP is not a Catholic shadow henchmen outfit, it is simply another political parasite feeding off the lifeblood of the Church as long as there is a willing and culpable press to publish every bit of filth that can be linked to the Church. It's a living for leftists and atheist losers who can't take the hard life on the street with the other anarchists, like OWS.
And, as for you countless and hundreds of thousands of "victims" – suck it up and move on, already- the constant whining is annoying. If you were truly victimized by anyone, anywhere- as a child, seek the professional counselling you truly need and then PRAY to GOD for healing.
The rest of you- shut up and GET a JOB.
Ah Delphin!, So debate has been debased to this. A paranoid illusionist yelling at the injured to shut up. Delphin, Jesus was about kindness. the only time he blew it was at the money changers INSIDE the temple. I know that what ever is driving your rage has nothing to do with us. I wish you peace.
And what is the lifeblood of the Church? It's membership or money?
Wrong, again, Robertson- your reception of my rejection of your "victimization" is fueled by neither anger or rage, it is simply an act of honesty calling out your chronic dishonesty about who your are and why you're here.
You happen to have put yourself out there on the wrong side of this contrived issue, so, don't whine now that you've gotten the attention you so desperately need. Don't dwell on (or actually haunt) a site dedicated to the tracking and outing of corrupt media, and so-called victims, and then cry foul when you're cited on your dishonesty. Why would anyone (normal) feel the need to compulsively and impulsively post on a site that is against everything he supposedly embraces? Why would juvenile post-pubescent (aka testosterone laden) males (not helpless or weak children), historically, the ranks from which the worlds fiercest warriors were procured, permit homosexuals (and not the subset of which the particularly athletic, aggressive or robust types reside) to repeatedly abuse them? Perhaps some honest introspection by some of the "victims" is warranted.
If you are so concerned about real victims of criminal, predator homosexuals, go to the source of that behavior which is inherently male and inherently homosexual and apply your "fixes" there. It isn't about where the crime plays out/ erupts (where hasn't it?), it is about a culture that promoted and even glorified the behavior….until it came back to bite it's own right on their butts.
So, we do reap what we sow-
If I went to where the homosexuals need "fixing" according to you: my first stop would be the Vatican.
Both my perps were straight. I was just handy. Molestation is about power. sex was the weapon
By the way. My first molestation was in a classroom full of boys. There was no "choice" involved on my part. My second abuse, I had the lead in the school play. It was an all boys school I had to wait for the girls in the play to show up. My chemistry teacher made me report to his office. I was a deer in the headlights. He ran right over me. I didn't know I had any choice in the matter. I obeyed my teacher because I thought if I told; no one would believe me. My word against a Brother and a grownup. Dealing with him is a lot like dealing with you.
If it's true: one reaps what one sows? The corporation side of your faith is reaping the whirlwind.
Where have I been dishonest here? You infer that somehow we children wanted this. You really should be deeply ashamed of yourself.
Where is child molestation glorified? I must have missed that episode. Or maybe it's only playing on your t.v..
Let's have you not talk to or about me anymore. [Comment edited by moderator.]
Well, at least you're keeping the moderator busy, if not any intellects.
Let's see if you can stick to your own advice…"let's not have YOU talk about YOU anymore.
Publican, I was going back to posts in June and July of this year. I noticed your take on the "coincidence" of the attack trial in Santa Clara County Calif by a victim against his perp; and the bizzare debate that ensued over his trial and aquital. Juxtaposed by you to the Philly cases happening at the same time.
I agree with you the coincidence of those two cases occuring concurently was no coincidence. But per usuall u got it wrong. The faint declarations of being antiviolence by SNAP. And at the same time the heralding of the victim commiting the violence against his perp by SNAP, wasn't just to get SNAP press attention.(and it certainly didn't make victims appear rational) It was also to offset the victims' victory and the Church's defeat in Philly. You (for what ever reason) didn't go deep enough. Kay Ebeling in her posts above says it all. SNAP's behavior in everything it does only, ONLY make sense if they are working for the Church and against victims not for us..
Yep, SNAPs failures are becasue they ARE the Catholic Church, not because they are antiCatholic, lying, sewer-trawling, mercenary exploiters.
I wish we all could be so insightful as some TMR contributors and just stop with all the annoying evidence to the contrary.
The Church conspired to abuse children (incl infants and toddlers, I am sure), then they conspired to cover it all up and now one of their media organs is revictimizing so that the Church can continue in it's shadow mission to provide an endless supply of "chickens" for the Church "chicken-hawks". After all, there is so much money in that end of their business, because as you know, they are all about money and power and world domination. Well, at least, right after they have their insatiable world flesh appetites quenched. And, they won't let women into their "clubhouse", because, as you also know and has been proven, the girls will be the "stool pigeons" and blow the whistle on the whole sordid maghilla.
Yep, it all makes perfect sense to me- I am a convert!
Here's a little story about damage control. A"counter intelligence" effort by the U.S. Government in the 1960's with the anti war movement was exposed in the Church report , Church in this case being a U.S. Congress person. The job of "counter intelligence. Is to appear as if one thing: a "radical" Black Panther for example. When in fact that person is an agent for the government. An agent not only who informs but acts to control any thing the government wants controlled. If the agent can.
There is also the concept of agent provaceteurs. Creating problems that benefit the opposition while posing as a commited member of that opposition.
Then we have you vs. SNAP and SNAP vs. the Church.
Why would SNAP hold no elections of it's officers by it's "12,000" plus membership? Too busy for democracy?
Who creates SNAP political policies: Why they behave the way they do.? If there are no elections, how exactly does SNAP decide what's good PR for victims compared to bad PR for victims and who decides which and again why?
The victims i have met over the past 10 yrs plus are on the whole no longer Catholic (empatheticly you might understand why.) Yet here's Barbara Blaine and Fr. Tom Doyle not only still Catholic but the prior with a Masters and Batchelors degrees masters in Divinity from two midwestern Catholic universities and the latter, Fr Doyle who states he has no connection to the Catholic church yet supposedly earned his pension and ranking from the U.S.Airforce as a Catholic chaplain. Curiouser and curiouser. Especially since in Doyle's case no other priests have stood up in America as a defender of victims and our needs. So odd, so odd in fact that both Blaine and Doyle appear regularly in other countries where not one other heroic priest as sacrificed himself and his career, the way Doyle supposedly has for "Survivors" Not victims but survivors. mmmm.
A few years ago I saw the obituary for Barbara Blaine's mother. This woman was head of numerous Catholic womens and other Catholic organizations in Chicago. It was and is extraordinary. And then we have Clohessy's rise to SNAP just as his twin brother managed to avoid jail (somehow).
Now since the majority of victims I've met are no longer Catholic? How do explain the odds mathmatically of the 2 leaders of SNAP not only recieving their degrees from Catholic institutions but still active Catholics when the rest of us victims arn't?
Jesus said " Judge them by their actions" If you look at SNAP's actions..well you are all p.o.'d at them does that appear like an effective use of P.R. to you? Believe me it doesn't from our side either.
And it's not the powerless people of faith in the Church that conspired. it's the higher ups who chose this policy of counter intelligence: attacking the Church. All the while verbally pretending it's not attacking the church.. And now SNAP does it's tricks internationally
That's absolutely right. Your own hierarchy is who's attacking your Church and your faith; not the victims.
I'm not getting the reason or benefit to the Church (or even individuals) for the higher ups/"power elite" conspiring to take down the Church.
Re: your points of Catholic traitors, and you name quite a few, just as there are traitors within the family, industry, and our nation, you will, alas, find them in (all) our Church's, too. Traitors goals are always self-serving, never designed to benefit the target. If there's an internal war for power being waged, and your point is SNAP is but a weapon of one faction, that does not make an institutional, heirarchical scandal- but, that does make a nasty internal battle that is thoroughly unCatholic and it wouldn't be the first time some (usually minor and shortlived) elements of the Church participated in unCatholic behavior. But, after all, it is comprised of merely us human sinners.
The fact is that SNAP has worked to damage the Church – that is undeniable. The Good News is that it didn't, and it may be actually having the counter-effect of bringing some lost sheep back into the fold. Just as you will discover "new" patriots and repatriots when your home nation is attacked, you will also find reconverts and new converts when your birth or nacent religion is attacked.
If you think you have proof of your claims, why aren't you providing it? It would serve your own purpose (justice, forgiveness?), as well as the Church's true mission to take your theory/argument to the next level. You claim to have a load of insider SNAP info and certainly are not shy about floating a few to-date unstrung theories, why don't you pull it all together, cohesively and publish it?
"If you're not part of the solution……"
Bingo! you're getting it. My posting here, and other places, is publishing it, in my opinion. Doyle himself wrote in his presentation to the Bishops that the committees the Bishops would found, ie SNAP and VOTF being so obviously those "comittees", must be kept highly secret or that would cause an even bigger scandal than the abuse and coverup itself. Nobody wants to believe that they are capable of being conned (even though we all can be). That's why it's one thousand times harder at getting this con job sussed. You haven't experienced what we have re SNAP so how would you know who they really are? I'm not blaming you for not knowing. I just wanted you to know.
Now how to be "part of the solution" If every thing Kay, Rich and I have said about SNAP is true (and it most certainly is.) The question is how can you and we fix this mess, together?
The proof I have, is in the pudding. The actions of SNAP and VOTF belie the, to quote you: "Yada yada". of those "committees". ( Just because you follow a more conservative line than say the membership of VOTF doesn't mean either of you are less moral than the other.) I know you haven't "converted" to my side. But at least (Thank God! and you) you're thinking. Thank you.
First and this is coming from an Athiest, your Church can never be taken down; because you can't be taken down. This particular power elite out of Missouri and Chicago (Cardinal George, I believe) think they are protecting the Church's wealth which means more to them than the Church's people harmed. And that's why Doyle SNAP and VOTF are like a fire break between the injured and compensation due. They are the attempt to remain a primere financial power because those dolts think financial power is where the Church's true power lies. WRONG it lies in you and your children. It always has and always will. Think of the Mystical Body of Christ that (through the Sacraments) you are a part of. Jesus and the truth are your strength. With them on your side, you have it all.
Until you have hard evidence, yours is just another fantastic conspiracy theory. I agree there are political battles internal to the Church heirarchy, but to take it to the degree that you and your cohorts attempt, is asking too much of the logical mind – you're into Area 51 stuff. Starting from the "evidence" line of the "Pudding", a similarly outrageous claim could be made of you. But, I am actually starting to believe that you believe your theory.
So, for my NY resolution, I will no longer "focus" on your posts, I think you are a tortured soul and I have never been a bully. Merry Christmas to you and your family. I pray for peace and healing for you.
Ahhhh! The pick up then the let down.
Now I and the other victims who've sussed SNAP, are the fantasists.i.e.. "Area 51". That victims are never asked for input isn't "hard evidence" enough? In a "movement", as SNAP refers to itself, no democracy isn't enough to at least start you asking deeper questions? Evidently not. And if you've never been a "bully" I'd hate to meet someone you'd think was one. Calling me a " tortured soul" in your frame of reference is what? Emotional support? Not another "ad hominum"? After months of me ,and lately others, posting here. Now you believe that poor" tortured soul" me actually believes what I've said. Absolutely amazing!
P.S. SNAP's founding non profit papers were from the Sinsinawa Dominican order. (Posted at Victims of Silence) Tom Doyle is the former top Canon lawyer for the Vatican Embsassy in the U.S.and a Dominican priest.
Leopards appointed Canon lawyers for the Vatican Embassy under JPII don't, contrary to the SNAP myth, change their spots.
P.P.S. SNAP sent out it's initial leadership packets with a return address of a convent that,to this day is Church owned property. How do you like those facts?